[Itpolicy-np] E-governnce loan for Neapl by ADB

[Prasanna David]

Dear Rajendra ji,

But, sadly, that is how ADB, world bank works.  They give as loans huge
amount of money and would expect some return from that.  I have seen
this in many "development" projects in India.  Those banks also say how
that should be implemented and so on and that would indirectly imply
that the contracts would go to some MNC.

Also, what is more needed and useful at this stage is a sort of "micro
level" applications and networks - that are more localised.  Small and
localised networks and applications like telemedicine, remote
classrooms, e-commerce, etc. that covers small areas - like district
levels.  Any nationwide applications will need a really huge pipe as a
backbone and I don't think if we are anywhere near achieving it.

I agree with you that such a big loan at this stage is a big burden.

regards,
Prasanna David 

On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 22:05 +0500, enrd at wlink.com.np wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I have been participating in the program for building master plan of
> E-governance since a year. Also ENRD has got an opportunity to collect
> data for developing this e-governance master plan. For this purpose ENRD
> has mobilised 14 students of MCA which are taking class of E-governance
> run by ENRD in Kantipur City college.
> 
> But every one should know:
> how this project has been developed?
> 
> Kim a volunteer from South Korea has arrived in Nepal with the mission
> for promoting ICT in Nepal government. He joined to NITC as E-governance
> Adviser. He with KOICA has decided to make one good proposal on
> E-governance and submitting to ADB for developing E-governance project
> in Nepal. According this plan Kim and KOICA did many phases talk with
> ADB and ultimately ADB has given green signal for giving 30 Million US $
> ( I heard !) to develop E-governance in Nepal. After this green signal
> KOICA has visited consultant many times in Nepal for developing
> E-governance Master plan.
> 
> many time there happen meeting with Ministery of environment, Science and
> Technology. More then 3 times Nepali Ministery, Burucarcy and some
> toplevel personality got exposer visit to Korea for this e-governance
> master plan.
> 
> KOICA team along with few NITC engineers, HLCIT engineers and other
> Ministery burucreats collected data from 4 telecenters, from 3 cites,
> and all the ministers inside Singhadurbar. As my knowledge there was not
> defined exact qualified  methodology for data collection. So I can say
> here the data research design is not accurate (This is frist reason) of
> this study.  After 6 months the KOICA team has submitted e-governance
> master plan to ADB. And ADB has shown it's acceptance to provide 30
> million US $ as  loan (it's is not money doneted by ADB) for deploying
> that e-governance master plan.
> 
> I with few persons were against with this plan and since then we didn't
> participate in the program.
> 
> Why?
> 
> आफ्नो घरको
> स्याउ कुइएर
> खेरा
> गइरहेको छ
> उता अर्काको
> घरको झरेको
> स्याउ किनेर
> खाने गर्न
> लागे पाछि
> पनि राम्रो
> हुन्छ्? 30 million US $ loan, and as
> my study E-governance project are hardly becoming  success in world.
> According to Nepal situation more then 86% popullation stay in villages
> and rural area where there is not any ICT infrastructure. After the
> audinece of E-governance is decreased then e-governance plan will be
> fail. But we need to pay money from each Nepali's head to ADB and high
> salary for deploying E-governace will go to directly others's stomach,
> which will not fulfill Nepali's hungry stomach.
> 
> Why  need to hurry for taking this much big loan? first make our
> infrastructure strong.  E-governance is application that runs in our
> infrastructure so why seeking ADB loan to
> नेपालि
> डुबाउन. If really ADB wants to
> develop on line  E-governance in Nepali ADB shoud  not give loan but
> should donote this amount.
> 
> नेपाललाइ loan
> मा
> डुबाउनेहरुको
> माफियाको
> ‍चक्करमा
> नेपाल परेर
> यदि यो master plan fail
> खायो भने
> नेपालि
> आमाले पक्कै
> पनि हामिलाइ
> सराप्ने
> छन्।
> त्यसैले यदि
> माग गरौ
> 
> Change loan to in free Grants first and develop infrastructure. Do not
> bring any export from other country we ourself can make our country.
> 
> Regards
> Rajendra
> 
> 
> ।
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/28/2007, "Prasanna David G" <prasannadavid at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >Apologies for my ignorance and asking stupid questions, but what is
> >the composition of HLCIT ?  How do they get input ?
> >
> >If the Govt. is reciving huge loans for building up ICT
> >infrastructure, how does the Govt. decides what is going to be done
> >and how ?  Whom does it consult ?  HLCIT or NTC or someone else ?
> >
> >We cannot depend on Telco's alone for building the communication
> >infrastructure.  Most of the time, telcos like to have the ability to
> >"limit and control" flow of information so that it is easier to
> >charge, and hence would prefer the likes of CDMA to WiFi.
> >
> >Mahabir ji has shown the way how best to do it for this country, but
> >how exactly can we make the Govt. adopt that model ?  Do we influence
> >the government through the ever changing ministers or through the
> >likes of HLCIT ?
> >
> >Another question, when the likes of ADB gives huge loans for
> >infrastructure development, do they tell us what and how to do ?
> >
> >
> >I agree with Pavan ji that we should not copy from other countries,
> >also because our governance, geography, etc are all different.  Also,
> >when other developed countries started move in this direction, the
> >technologies, products and wisdom that was available was very
> >different from what we have today.
> >
> >regards,
> >Prasanna David
> >
> >
> >On 1/27/07, pavan at wlink.com.np <pavan at wlink.com.np> wrote:
> >> Sad but true that our Government is lagging behind than our neighbours.
> >> When I recall my visit to India back in 1989, only few top government
> >> offices were equipped with XT computers while, THEN, I had the
> >> opportunity to learn Word Star 2.0 being a school chap.
> >>
> >> Shall we analyze where did we go wrong and learn from our mistakes and
> >> failures ?
> >>
> >> During the first interaction session of e-governance, in NITC, I had
> >> asked the floor that :
> >>
> >> ARE WE TARGETTING 80% RURAL POPULATION OR 20% URBAN POPULATION ?
> >>
> >> If ADB is providing grant/loan/subsidy to the government, let's work
> >> together in PPP model. Let us all work out on plans that suits our
> >> country and not just copy the model of developed country.
> >>
> >> OTHERWISE, WE WILL BE ADDING ANOTHER CONCRETE WALL TO HIDE DIGITAL DIVIDE.
> >>
> >> Pavan
> >>
> >> On 1/27/2007, "mahabir at himanchal.org" <mahabir at himanchal.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hello All;
> >> >
> >> >Sorry I forgot to paste the link. It is here.
> >> >
> >> >http://mit.gov.in/csc/MediaBrief.asp
> >> >
> >> >Mahabir
> >> >
> >> >> Hello all;
> >> >>
> >> >> Please look at the news clip as what Indian government is doing. They are
> >> >> talking about setting up 100,000 rural community service centers across
> >> >> the country for their e-governance plan. Let us not just look at the news
> >> >> clip but think.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have heard that Mr. Kim from Korea is in Kathmandu with 30 million
> >> >> dollar support from Korean government. There is contribution from ABD or
> >> >> World Bank also. Do you think the e-governance plan that Mr. Kim is
> >> >> working on with HLCIT will succeed without building a reliable wireless
> >> >> broadband network infrastructure accross the country?
> >> >>
> >> >> Setting up wireless broadband network across the country is setting up
> >> >> information highway in Nepal. It is the duty of Nepal Government to set it
> >> >> up or at least take initiative to set it up. After the information highway
> >> >> is built up, it is the work of DDCs, VDCs, schools/colleges, private
> >> >> businesses and development agencies to expand the network to every corner
> >> >> of the country. In other word, once the information highway is built up,
> >> >> people will take initiative to bring the ICT to their homes and
> >> >> businesses. and will use it the way they would like. The innovativeness
> >> >> that Gaurab has mentioned comes after that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Take an example of many rural roads that VDCs, DDCs, and INGOs have built
> >> >> deep into the rural areas adjoining the major highways. They are still
> >> >> building the many more roads. If you have not been out of Kathmandu valley
> >> >> for quite a long time, please learn that there are many rural roads that
> >> >> go to different villages from Prithvi Highway, East West Highway,
> >> >> Siddhartha Highway, Arniko Highway etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> Let us think and work together.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> >> Mahabir
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> I agree with Mahabir dai here. Believing that CDMA will bring in more
> >> >>> options is good - but it doesn't give the local users to be
> >> >>> innovative and build using newer and more adaptive technologies.
> >> >>> Moreover, this brings in 'vendor lock-in' in the form of Nepal
> >> >>> Telecom - not very good for the consumers.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And, CDMA won't be able to provide the necessary bandwidth, and VSAT
> >> >>> are too expensive. NT/other operators can continue to deploy CDMA and
> >> >>> other forms of access, but that shouldn't rule out anyone else
> >> >>> providing innovative service. RTDF usage shouldn't be tied to certain
> >> >>> technologies. For that matter, any kind of policy tied to any
> >> >>> specific technology is a bad idea - it hinders innovation.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> and i guess we have already seen this with the nepal wireless
> >> >>> project, but not for the policies but for the way mahabir worked.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> thanks
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Jan 26, 2007, at 4:27 AM, mahabir at himanchal.org wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Hello  all;
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> It is nice to read the recommendations that PS-4 study made. Thank you
> >> >>>> Gajendra ji for that. Please comment on my ideas if I am wrong.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> There is no doubt that CDMA will cover a large area of Nepal and will
> >> >>>> provide telephone and Internet servise to the people in the rural
> >> >>>> areas.
> >> >>>> However, CDMA has bandwidth constraint and the 153 kbps Internet
> >> >>>> connection is good for browsing only the Internet and send emails.
> >> >>>> However, it is not enough for delivering telemedicine and teleteaching
> >> >>>> requirements of the rural areas. Telemedicine and teleteaching are the
> >> >>>> needs of the rural areas where no doctors and qualified teachers are
> >> >>>> available.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> My strong point is that wireless is the only way to bring the medical
> >> >>>> doctors living and working in the city hospitals virtually to the
> >> >>>> villages. There is no way anybody can force them to go and work in the
> >> >>>> remote areas. If we find ways to connect them to the villages through
> >> >>>> wireless, there will be many doctors available to serve the rural
> >> >>>> areas
> >> >>>> people. The same is true with qualified teachers that are needed in
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>> rural schools.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Fiber optics is the best solution to provide the high bandwith
> >> >>>> connectivity for telemedicine and teleteaching purpose. However, it
> >> >>>> will
> >> >>>> not be practical in the Mahabharat and Himalayan region. VSAT is the
> >> >>>> easiest solutions, but who can afford the US$3 per kbps bandwidth
> >> >>>> charge?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Therefore Wireless network is the best solution to meet the needs that
> >> >>>> CDMA can't not provide.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Here is one idea. Nepal is about 1,400 km long from East to West.
> >> >>>> If we
> >> >>>> build relay towers at about a distance of 30 km apart, we will need to
> >> >>>> build about 45 relay towers. These towers should be built on the
> >> >>>> mountain
> >> >>>> ranges right after the Terai belt from where it can cover maximum
> >> >>>> areas to
> >> >>>> the North and to the South. From those towers, we need to build
> >> >>>> towers to
> >> >>>> the North at about the same distance. The average distance from
> >> >>>> South to
> >> >>>> North of Nepal is about 100 KM. That means we need to build three
> >> >>>> towers
> >> >>>> to cover North to South. That will make about 150 towers in total.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Now NTC has already built many towers across the country. If we use
> >> >>>> their
> >> >>>> towers, we won't need to build more than 150 relay towers. Each tower
> >> >>>> should be equipped with  four to six radios that has 100Mbps to 150
> >> >>>> Mbps
> >> >>>> transmit power. These radios are available now in the market.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> If we use radios that have over 50 km to 100 km ranges in near line of
> >> >>>> sight (NLOS) situation, we won't even need to build 150 towers
> >> >>>> across the
> >> >>>> country.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Now comes the VSAT. We can use VSAT in the areas where none of the
> >> >>>> technology as mentioned above can reach. Therefore we don't need to
> >> >>>> build
> >> >>>> 1,700 VSAT stations that the PS - 4 study has recomended.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> The truth is that it will take less than three years to get everything
> >> >>>> done. It is not that a hard task to do.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thanks.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Mahabir Pun
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Dear Mahabirji   Khanalji and friends of the discussion group,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> May be  I can share outcomes of  PS-4  study (I
> >> >_______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >>
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